Reversing the Thinking on This (Sometimes Misunderstood) Concept of the Mentor and Mentee Relationship  

Confession time: The following Q&A with my boss, Kent, was supposed to be all about “reverse mentoring” – where someone more established in their career seeks out someone, usually earlier in their career, to help them stay up-to-date with what’s current and fresh.

And while it does still talk about the concept made popular by former GE CEO Jack Welch in the ‘90s, what emerged clearest to me after speaking with Kent was how intertwined mentoring and reverse mentoring actually are. You really can’t have an effective recipe for mentorship without an appropriate dash of both: i.e. a years of experience, plus type of experience.

When Kent used the phrase “thinking partners” to describe what I had been calling the reverse mentorship he and I had “formally” entered a few months ago, the lightbulb of lightbulbs went off in my head: This is the way senior leaders and junior employees should interact, and this is how each party benefits most — no matter the title either has been given.

Kent goes on to give some dynamite insight and advice on improving oneself through learning from others, while reversing what we thought we knew about reverse mentors – and mentors in general, for that matter.

So, without further ado, here is an edited, condensed Q&A about the concept of reverse mentoring  (!) “thinking partners” with Kent Cassella, associate vice president of Communications and Brand Strategy, and university spokesperson at Michigan State University, who has been in the public relations field since the mid ‘90s. Prior to coming to work at MSU in 2007, he was Director of Public Relations for the United States Military Academy at West Point. Kent also spent twenty years in the Army, and retired from active duty with the rank of Lieutenant Colonel.

I consider you a mentor — I’ve always admired how you lead a team, and inspire everyone to do their best work. So when you turned the tables and asked me a few months ago to be YOUR reverse mentor, I was honored, but admittedly, a little nervous! Like, KENT, wants ME to help him?! What could I possibly offer? So why did you decide to seek out a reverse mentor? How did the idea come about?
First of all, I question your judgment for having me as a mentor (laughs).  I think the reverse mentor concept is very important and some people, I think, do it accidentally. When I find a great, young employee who is just smart and I know I can learn a lot from – in your case, you gave me an opportunity to formalize something, so that’s why I had to ask you.

A little bit of this comes from my military time; that’s where I learned you have to listen to your soldiers because there’s a generational difference, but they’ve got some great ideas. That lesson could really apply to any organization.

When I think about the challenges I have as a leader, I have to build an organization with a shared purpose and a shared consciousness. But when I look at the team members I have, they don’t all look like me. So especially, when I look at you – you have different experiences, you have different vocabulary, you have a very different skillset when it comes to things like digital media than I do. In my mind, that’s “an inversion of expertise,” because so many changes to technology and public relations strategy and tactics have happened since I started in public relations decades ago — so how do I as a leader stay credible and legitimate leading these people who have values and skills so different than mine? Well, I need to learn from them.  So the reverse mentor idea is a perfect venue for that to happen.

Besides introducing someone to new technologies or emerging media, what are some more benefits of a reverse mentor?
Several: for a leader in an organization to not take advantage of the experiences and talents that they have on their team – to me that seems very arrogant, narrow-minded, and just dumb!

Technology is one benefit. If we look at the technology my age group grew up with, and the way we leveraged that technology (especially to do our public relations jobs), and the new and emerging technologies we use today, that is a part of it.  They say “technology is only technology to those born before technology.”  You grew up with it – it’s just a normal way of doing things for you. Well, that’s different generationally. That’s going to be different for the generation that’s coming behind you.

But that’s only one piece of it. There’s also the way they think.  (“They,” meaning you.) Your generation thinks differently, they approach problems differently. Life experiences can beat you down, and get you into a certain mode of thinking; I need someone to break me out of that every now and then. Because a lot of times when you get to a more senior level, you come across similar problems. So my default is to attempt to solve it the way I have the past five times.

But that may not be the best way to solve that problem anymore. So I need someone who is looking at this problem differently, who is not biased by what’s happened in the past, and can perhaps give me a new vision or a new approach or a new way to solve something.

Let’s talk a little about logistics. From the start, you wanted this to be a very informal thing;  whenever I came across something interesting or of importance, you simply asked that I send you an email or stop by your office. Since this was new for both of us, we were and still are “adventure learning.” Has this style been effective? Why not set up something more formal?
I like adventure learning, because adventures are fun, and learning should be fun.

I love when you just come in here and talk to me about things, and that you don’t automatically assume I understand things; that’s a good thing. But, I think we have to formalize it a bit more so we can ensure we spend time thinking about the important things. I’ve got piles of PR publications sitting on the corner of my desk that are full of great information and stuff that I would love to read, but half of these will get recycled before I ever look at them. We need to make time to have the conversations. We need to talk about our profession every day. That’s how we get better.

You and I popping into each other’s offices periodically, I don’t think that’s enough, personally. So we’re going to try to “fence some time” so we can meet once a week. We can make it thirty  minutes for us to talk about whatever is we think is cool, and what we want to talk about –  if I’ve got questions about something new or something I’m wrestling with, that I need some help with and for you, too, to say, “Hey, I’m trying to deal with this.  What’s my next step on this, what do you think?” It’s just for us to be “thinking partners” together. We want to keep it fun and adventuresome, because that’s where creative solutions come from.

Do you have advice for anyone who is currently seeking a reverse mentor, or maybe someone who is unsure he or she will find value in this type of mentor? We sit by each other, so we kind of fell into it.
It’s very easy when you sit next to each other; that’s the best part because geography helps facilitation.

To be a good leader, you have to do two things: You have to know yourself, and to seek self-improvement. So the first step is knowing yourself, and knowing your blind spots and then, going to find someone who can fill your blind spots. I think that’s probably the most important advice I would give to a leader who’s looking for a reverse mentor.

And when you’re looking for that person to fill those blind spots, look for one who’s able and willing to overcome the organizational hierarchy, and be an effective reverse mentor. There are people I know, who, just because of the title that they put before my name, are very uncomfortable sitting in a room and having a frank discussion with me. And that, quite frankly, becomes a barrier between them being able to help me. I have to work harder to break through that so we can have that kind of communication.

I’m very fortunate with my reverse mentor that she is very sharp and very polite, but in a very professional and polite manner, can speak truth to me and she knows she can do that. It doesn’t matter what our titles are, so in that regard, I’m extremely fortunate.

Thank you for those kind words; you have created an atmosphere in which I feel comfortable to do that.  Now, next question: what can reverse mentors gain from this type of mentorship?
I think there’s a lot to gain. Let’s not draw a hard line between mentoring and reverse mentoring – this is a two-way street. This isn’t just all, “Hey, Jen, get in here and teach me something, and don’t ask any questions. “ No, that’s not what we’re looking for at all.

It’s back to that shared purpose and shared consciousness inside the organization, and for you to understand the things that I’ve done and the experience that I have – that’s the benefit to you. And the benefit to me is the exact same thing; it’s just different. So I’m covering my blind spots – I’m filling these gaps that I need filled, but so are you. So there’s really not a difference, it’s just that the street isn’t a one-way, it’s a two-way street.

When you use road terms like that, it makes me think that while I may be helping you cover your blind spots, you’re helping me see the signs ahead.
That’s exactly right!

Should a junior-level employee looking to mentor someone ask a seasoned-employee? I don’t think I would.
But you did! (laughs)

But not in those exact terms (wanting to crawl under the table); I would just talk to you about things!
I wouldn’t recommend knocking on a senior leader’s door and say, “Hey, you need a reverse mentor, here I am!”  Instead, let it build. Let it be organic.

This is why I say you already did ask me. Some of it’s because we sit near each other. You would come and tell me things, and ask me about things and say, “Hey, I’ve got a question about this,” so that’s me mentoring you a little bit or giving you advice.

But you would also come in and say, “Did you see what’s going on with Reddit?” And I’d say, “No, what are they doing?” Now, you’re helping me understand something. And it started to grow from there. So if someone is looking to establish a reverse mentor relationship with a senior-level employee, ask yourself if there’s something of value you could offer to them and if there’s something of value they might be able to offer you. Then start to engage and see if it grows.

What about advice for a junior-level employee who just entered into a reverse mentorship and she – ahem, they – would really like to make sure they are actually proving useful?
The most important thing is knowing the blind spots the mentor has, and looking to understand that better because that’s what it’s all about – and that’s actually the hardest part, now that you ask me.

As the junior person in this reverse mentor relationship, you have to ask yourself, “What are the things I have that would be of value?” it’s sometimes hard to determine what those things are because of the limited experiences from which to pick.

But if you flip that around, and ask me what I have to offer, because of the benefit of all the years of experience, I’ve got a better catalog to choose from to say, “This has never happened to her yet, so let me talk her through that experience a bit.” It’s harder for the reverse mentor because they don’t have as big of “a catalog” yet – but don’t ever sell yourself short. Remember, there are all these experiences and the way you look at things that are different than what I did at the beginning of my career; that’s the stuff I need to hear.

I need someone to come in and talk to me about how this or that generation of Americans thinks about something. I’m not in that generation of Americans.  If I can only think and relate to my generation, I’m missing a whole lot of the audience out there. That’s where reverse mentorship becomes invaluable to me, helping me understand all those things you intuitively think, know, feel and do; that’s vital.

I really like the idea that there is no hard line between mentor and reverse mentor; it’s not one or the other. It ends up working when you’re sharing the information.
You just made me think of something with the way you said that. Has there ever been a mentorship where there hasn’t been a reverse mentorship involved? Hasn’t it always been there?

Now, it just seems there is a phrase “reverse mentor” to help legitimize the value.
The good news is, more people are thinking about making sure it’s a two-way street, but shouldn’t it have always been? Because I always learned from my soldiers when I was in the Army. Sometimes, pf course, it’s not a huge two-way street — depending on the organization and times and situations, but a leader would be very close-minded to think they have reached a point where they have nothing to learn from their employees.

I think that’s what makes you and other good leaders good – they are always learning from their people. And maybe they didn’t have the terminology before, but reverse mentoring was always happening. I wonder now, too, if the phrase “reverse mentor” gives junior-level employees something more to claim and a way to own their value a bit more.
Right, if nothing else, the value is this: everyone knows this is something they should pay attention to because there is huge value in it for everybody, both the organization and the individuals.

It all goes back to leadership. Leadership is all about people. People are broken and messy and carry a lot of baggage, and your job as a leader is to get them all together to share a common goal; you have to completely understand them. If you don’t learn from them and about them, you will never succeed.